Dear Chris Bowers and Open Left gang: Stay the hell out of Ohio and lay off Zack Space
Submitted by 2010 Buckeye on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 6:26pm.
Potts at Left of Ohio picked up this story from Open Left. The gist of it is the beginning of a campaign to drive "Bush Dogs", a play off Blue Dogs, out of the House of Representatives. They're pretty adamant about sticking their noses in local business, and they've even made themselves a list! Appearing on said list are Ohio Reps. Space and Wilson. Wilson admittedly could use some work when it comes to the positions he takes, but it isn't cause for revolt. He has taken the 6th district more to the right than Ted Strickland ever did which is foolish and unnecessary. However, that can be dealt with here in Ohio without the help of any obnoxious out-of-state bloggers.
Space represents the more conservative 18th district. He has done a fine job as a representative tending to his constituents by working hard on the issues that affect them. He's also a proud Democrat and a good party member. He doesn't deserve any of the bile that these national folks are looking to throw at him. Any ridiculous attacks from the left will only harm the party and may cost us the seat. He will be a prime target for Republican attack in 2008, and the last thing anyone wants to see is folks who are ignorant of the local situation causing problems for a hardworking Congressman who deserves to be reelected.
So please, Open Left crew, let us take care of Ohio. After all, we know the Buckeye State much better than you do.
thats an interesting point
Submitted by 2010 Buckeye on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 8:33pm.
that i hadn't really considered. really what bugs me most about this is that the people behind this are not wired into ohio politics. some of their complaints, especially against wilson, are legitimate. but it's dangerous to start messing with a very delicate balance that we literally just achieved last year. yes, having as many as people as possible represented by democrats would be ideal.
Well, maybe not...
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 8:53pm.
You may be giving the national bloggers too much credit for long-range thinking, Jill. From reading the posts at Open Left, it appears their targeting of Zack, Charley etc. relates to short-range voting on the floors during the waning months of Lame-Brain-Duck Bush. Doubt they're thinking ahead to OH losing population and US House seats after the 2010 census.
What is important after 2010 will be drawing of the district lines for congress by a legislature (hopefully at least a Dem OHio House) and a re-elected Ted Strickland heading the Apportionment Board. The A-Board draws the legislative lines and the legislature draws the congressional lines -- which are currently ridiculously gerrymandered for Republicans. New district lines will give people like Space a better shot at survival and improve chances to knock off Reps. LaTourette, Schmidt etc.
Agree, Blue
Submitted by Jill on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 9:28pm.
Just pointing out that that might be all the more reason to work & see if and how Space can be, at a minimum, a placeholder for certain ideals when that eventuality happens. Being in Ohio, in touch with what is down the road for Ohio, would be/should be part of the calculus used by national bloggers & local bloggers, looking long-range. Not sure what good short-range does us at this point in time - but I'm a newbie to this analysis stuff, relatively speaking. Just seems illogical to me at this point to flag them. I could be wrong - won't be first or last time.
Amen, 2010 Buckeye...
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 8:36pm.
This kind of anti-Blue Dog poison makes me choke on my kibble...These big-foot bloggers like Bowers and Stoller are the ones that need to be leashed...
If Ohio (and other states with tough GOP-drawn districts)don't back people like Zack and Charlie, you can kiss Madame Speaker Pelosi goodbye... If the coastal libs build dossiers and keep dissing the moderates and Blue Dog Dems in the battleground states, we wil all wind up with Speaker Boehner and President Rudy or Romney. The next thing you know these self-appointed blog fathers will want Kucinich to challenge Strickland in the 2010 gubernatorial primary.
btw..I'm a raging, moderate progressive. The BDR moniker derives -- not from the Blue Dog Caucus of Congress -- but from my blog-roots on the ODP's Blue Blog (as in turn Ohio Blue) and the fact that I actually own a blue dog.
I think you're missing the point
Submitted by Ohio2nd on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 8:40pm.
Drawing light on Democrats who are too close to Bush is not the same thing as actively fighting to get them thrown out of office. Politicians hate nothing more than scrutiny, and Democrats need to police their own. That's what the blogosphere does best.
Personally, I'm very troubled by a lot of actions by Congressman Space. On many issues it's getting hard to tell the difference between Space and blogosphere villain Jean Schmidt.
I want him to feel pressure every time he plays to the right. After all, the goal is to promote positive change, not just elect people who call themselves "Democrats".
To me the best way to do this is to treat politicians like dogs. Praise good behavior, chastise bad behavior and keep them on a firm, short leash.
I completely understand the point
Submitted by 2010 Buckeye on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 8:51pm.
if you reread about you'll see that I agree that Charlie Wilson deserves pressure. He is in a much safer position than Space, and has no reason to swing right the way he has. Space on the other hand is attempting to navigate some rough political waters, and he is doing a much better job than you are giving him credit for.
He doesn't do us any good if he doesn't get reelected, and he doesn't get reelected if he votes like Sutton, Kaptur, or the other safer Dems. If he survives 2008 and is able to firmly establish his position, then it would be fair to apply some pressure to move him more in line with the caucus. You won't see any of that positive change in a Republican controlled Congress either.
If you want to join the out-of-state witch hunt, that's up to you.
A witch hunt
Submitted by Ohio2nd on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 4:53am.
is when you condemn someone for a crime that is pure fantasy. I consider being critical of politicians actions that you find highly questionable to be a civic duty.
As a public servant Congressman Space should welcome a substantial examination of his record. To consider that a "witch hunt" is not a good sign.
This sentence indicates that you don't get it: "The gist of it is the beginning of a campaign to drive "Bush Dogs", a play off Blue Dogs, out of the House of Representatives." Examining the record of politicians is not driving them out of the House of Representatives... that is unless they are totally corrupt. As Democrats we need to make sure that we avoid the hubris bred corruption of Republicans. After all, that is exactly why Congressman Space is called Congressman Space.
Obviously, there's a lot of powerful hands willing to help out a Congressman sitting in the 18th that's willing to put power over people. The best way to make sure that Democrats don't fall into that natural dynamic of power is to keep a close watch on every member of Congress, not just Republicans. As a good, ethical person, Congressman Space has nothing to worry about. Right?
As for those worrying about the Democrats losing control of the House of Representatives, the easiest way for that to happen is for Democrats in Congress getting caught in the same sort of corruption scandals as Bob Ney. The easiest way to avoid that is to make it clear to every member of Congress that the eyes of the blogosphere are upon them. There's a new sheriff in Washington DC and he's not carrying suitcases full of corporate cash.
As a public servant Congressman Space should welcome a substantial examination of his record. To consider that a "witch hunt" is not a good sign.
This sentence indicates that you don't get it: "The gist of it is the beginning of a campaign to drive "Bush Dogs", a play off Blue Dogs, out of the House of Representatives." Examining the record of politicians is not driving them out of the House of Representatives... that is unless they are totally corrupt. As Democrats we need to make sure that we avoid the hubris bred corruption of Republicans. After all, that is exactly why Congressman Space is called Congressman Space.
Obviously, there's a lot of powerful hands willing to help out a Congressman sitting in the 18th that's willing to put power over people. The best way to make sure that Democrats don't fall into that natural dynamic of power is to keep a close watch on every member of Congress, not just Republicans. As a good, ethical person, Congressman Space has nothing to worry about. Right?
As for those worrying about the Democrats losing control of the House of Representatives, the easiest way for that to happen is for Democrats in Congress getting caught in the same sort of corruption scandals as Bob Ney. The easiest way to avoid that is to make it clear to every member of Congress that the eyes of the blogosphere are upon them. There's a new sheriff in Washington DC and he's not carrying suitcases full of corporate cash.
Grrr....
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 9:06pm.
OK, Oh-2...treat 'em like "bad dogs"...And what if the Dem dogs occasionally vote the wrong way in the eyes of the national blog fathers? We euthanize our Ohio critters and give the House back to Boner ... er Boehner? Haven't you heard? They are no "bad dogs... just bad masters."??
Zack Space
Submitted by dpotts on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 1:10am.
Space has done a lot of good for his district and the surrounding region but it seems that people are only willing to judge him by his votes on two controversial issues.
yep. open left
Submitted by 2010 Buckeye on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 9:45am.
is ready to burn down the our big tent. some of charlie wilson's votes have been unacceptable, but space is just being cautious. when he gets reelected, then i think it will be fair to expect a little more out of him. anyways anyone interested in ideological purity should check out these guys. it's worked out really well for them.
open left politburo
Submitted by Tim Russo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 9:54am.
has always been about anti-war extreme. not about Democrats. not about winning elections. the energy of the hard left of the blogosphere has always come from a peacenik's view of foreign policy.
i've been wondering lately what the hard left of the blogosphere will do when a Democrat gets elected president and has to fight the war in afghanistan with ten times the effort this incompetent GOP crowd of lunatics has managed to muster. this is just a small taste - they want ideological purity on the level of Dennis Kucinich.
one of these days, Democrats are going to have to understand that not all votes fit the hard left's Noam Chomsky view of the world.
Nice frame Tim
Submitted by Ohio2nd on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 10:25am.
You should apply to be a pundit on Fox "News". I wonder how effective red baiting will be in 2008?
Thanks for reminding me how off you've always been on Iraq.
Thanks for reminding me how off you've always been on Iraq.
sorry, i meant the lakoff politburo
Submitted by Tim Russo on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 10:44am.
frame! frame! could you be more stereotypically silly?
it ain't a frame, it's reality. space and wilson cast votes to keep them in congress voting for a Democrat for speaker. push them from the left (especially from outside of ohio), in what are 2 of the most swing seats in the state, and you push the seats to the GOP. not sure why that's so hard to understand. btw, how's your buddy sherrod doin on the iraq war votes? why not go after him too?
as for iraq, it's a clusterfuck catastrophe and we need to get out, the sooner the better. then what?
what are these Framey McFrames gonna do when we inevitably leave iraq and are left with the current reality of the taliban resurgent in afghanistan? complain about troops in afghanistan? that'd be my bet.
We're onto something here
Submitted by Ohio2nd on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:12am.
Seriously Tim... make a video and put it on youtube. Send it to Fox. The Framey McFrame thing will be a huge hit. They'll love it. You and that DLC loser can bounce bad ideas off of each other.
What are you willing to accept?
Submitted by jump23 on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:14am.
As someone who has been a full-time staffer on more than one campaign, I do have an appreciation for the balance between acting on principal and acting out of political necessity. But I have a question for those who support political expediency in this case:
What are you willing to justify in the name of politics? A vote for the Iraq war? Vote for warranteless wiretapping? Vote for torture? How about a war with Iran if it were popular and politically easy?
I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a progressive Democrat. And if history is any judge of the definition of "progressive", it has partially meant taking a stand on principal when that stand wasn't popular.
What are you willing to justify in the name of politics? A vote for the Iraq war? Vote for warranteless wiretapping? Vote for torture? How about a war with Iran if it were popular and politically easy?
I don't know about the rest of you, but I consider myself a progressive Democrat. And if history is any judge of the definition of "progressive", it has partially meant taking a stand on principal when that stand wasn't popular.
Why I Support the "Bush Dog" Project
Submitted by jump23 on Wed, 08/22/2007 - 10:16pm.
This is disingenuous at best
Submitted by Mark Adams on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 12:23am.
If we were doing such a good job at influencing our own, Space and Wilson would not have thumbed their nose at us and voted for the Surge funding or the latest nonsense with FISA.
It's all fine and good when the progressive bloggers, Buckeyes or not, are supporting the home team -- but this seems pretty thin skinned when it comes to taking very legitimate criticism.
Saying you can't criticize them because you are not from Ohio is as vacuous as saying you can't criticize the war unless you've been in the military.
FISA vote
Submitted by cowalker on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 1:18am.
I agree with you, Mr. Adams. What does Representative Space say about his vote to give the Bush administration more unchecked power to spy on Americans? Were the voters of his district clamoring for this obesiance to the trustworthy and ethical Alberto Gonzales?
Amen
Submitted by jump23 on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:17am.
This isn't about throwing them out of office, it's about opposing things that are completely against Democratic (and democratic) ideas.
Again, all of this is a question of balance - sure sometimes politicians are going to do what they need to to stay in office. It's a question of what we as Democrats are willing to accept.
For me, repeated votes against stopping warrantless wiretapping, the war and torture are over the line - there should be consqeuences.
Please think before you react.
Submitted by Lynne on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 1:07am.
You're taking a very narrow perspective. If you think listing on "Bush Dogs" is unjustified, comment on that blog and explain why you think Space's and Wilson's votes are justified. You might also consider putting pressure on the Rep's to get on board with a progressive agenda. The Dem's in Congress are under fire in polls because they have been so gutless and given Bush what he wants - against the wishes of the majority of Americans. Where is the line? Are you going to give them a pass if they allow Bush to go into Iran? Seems like you need to do a little work in Ohio before attacking national blogs that are concerned about a bit more than Ohio,
Targetting Zack at this point is insane
Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 7:47am.
Jerid is absolutely right on point.
We should stop being motivated by fear
Submitted by JeanLR on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 9:15am.
The OpenLeft item simply asks other bloggers to compile some information about these congressmen, to gain better understanding of why they vote how they vote, what thier district is like, is there a way to convince them to a different point of view.
Perhaps Zack Space, Charlie Wilson, and others can be popularly supported in a way that will make them more willing to take the positions on the floor that I would like to see, like not expanding the Presidents power any further, and recognizing the inevitable truth of the US withdrawl from Iraq.
If congressmen cannot be persuaded to the position of the vast majority of Americans, then, well, who needs them?
The fact is that this country is united like never before. Disapproval of congress is at 80+%.
We need leadership, perhaps this will have to come from the People rather than a person.
Jerid when you're right...
Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:46am.
you're right.
Some people just cannot grasp nuance. They remind me of a crack that was made about Billy Martin when he was managing the Yankees
:
Having said that, things are changing. The ODP has come to life again. The DCCC has lots $$$$ and they ARE paying attention to Ohio (BELIEVE ME) and before you know it, redistricting will be a reality. And Jill makes a good point, it is critical that we capture every single seat possible heading into reapportionment.
But this kind of sanctimonious lefter-than-thou stuff still isn't my style. After all, they were Ohio congresscritters who are absolutely SAFE who voted against stem cell research and for the"Let's See What Library Books You've Checked Out" "Patriot Act" but I still wouldn't support this sort of crap.
"He sees "long term trends' in innings."And I am offended when people who have no idea of the situation here pontificate about our reps. I have NEVER known of a rep who votes "correctly" on every issue, every time. Zack is a brand new rep in a very shaky district. Wilson's INCREDIBLY gerrymandered District was created with just one purpose: to make life miserable for Ted Strickland.
Having said that, things are changing. The ODP has come to life again. The DCCC has lots $$$$ and they ARE paying attention to Ohio (BELIEVE ME) and before you know it, redistricting will be a reality. And Jill makes a good point, it is critical that we capture every single seat possible heading into reapportionment.
But this kind of sanctimonious lefter-than-thou stuff still isn't my style. After all, they were Ohio congresscritters who are absolutely SAFE who voted against stem cell research and for the
Space, a "good Democrat?"
Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 12:11pm.
He's proudly touted his "independence," i.e., his repeated voting with the Republican bloc. Things he's "done for the 10th" mostly include advocating environmentally catastrophic industrial development. Oh, and most recently, promoting a bill to subsidize gas prices to make it easier for rural commuters to burn more gas *and* keep the jobs in the cities. Great job, Zack.
What everyone else said
Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 12:32pm.
This is a very pathetic post. This point has been made repeatedly: Democrats who give Bush a working majority for issues like the "surge", warantless wiretapping, torture, etc., are (a) endangering the Constitution, (b) dragging the entire Democratic party reputation down nationally.
It is every bit our business, across the country, how these members of the *United States Congress* vote on *national* issues. If they were members of the Ohio State Legislature, then unless they were voting on matters relating to running national elections, it would not really be any of our business. But that's not the situtation.
If these anti-American, pro-Bush votes are aberrations, and the Congresspeople can be expected to improve, tell us that. :-)
Left?
Submitted by domestic goddess on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 1:09pm.
It is not left to want a representative or senator to support the Constitution and end the FISA/wiretap abuse. It is not left but center to expect these members to bring the troops home. I agree with Jump 23 and others above - how badly do congressmen want to hang onto their seats to vote for clearly wrong bills? These DLC, blue dogs or bush dogs (whatever tag) need to know that we expect them to vote like Democrats AND we will have their backs when they do. They have extremely hard ugly work ahead of them cleaning up the disasters created by this administration and 25 years of republican rule. They need to stop pussyfooting around and get to it. And we need to make sure we do have their backs as we suffer the consequences of 25 years of bad government and the cleanup.
a question
Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 5:05pm.
Space needs to answer the question, which is more important doing the right thing or getting reelected?
My, how we digresss in 24 hours...
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 8:11pm.
Let’s consider the original language of the 4-step “Bush Dog” tracking plan from Stoller on Open Left.
“The first step in stopping this behavior is to identify the people engaging in it and offer up criticism” ....Criticism is fine. Any vote is up for scrutiny.
“Two, some of these members may need to face a primary challenge” ....This "need" is NOT so fine in Ohio and probably other states.. The next thing you know Zack Space will be knocked off in a primary and replaced by a Ney R-clone .
“Three, other members considering joining the Bush Dog caucus may be dissuaded if they know there will be criticism.” ....This is fiction. There is no “Bush Dog caucus” to join except in the mind of Open Left. There IS a real Blue Dog Coalition (fiscal conservatives) within the Dem caucus. They support Speaker Pelosi and Speaker Pro Temp Steny Hoyer (a Blue Dog)
“Four, candidates running for office will finally have a signal on how they should talk about being good Democrats that are willing to take tough votes.” .....What kind of cool-aid is this? Force Space, Wilson and others on the Open Left’s Nixonian “list” to drink this stuff and we wind up with Speaker Boner… er Boehner. . What’s next? Kucinich challenges Ted Strickland in the 2010 primary for governor.
Dems won’t beat Karl Rove’s wingnut “base” strategy by imitating it.
"My conscience is better than your conscience"
Submitted by Jill on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 9:17pm.
Isn't diversity one of the hallmarks about being a Democrat? I never thought that the concept was limited to being only as diverse as Democrats who think they're more powerful or more correct think you should be.
Well said, Jill...
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:01pm.
.....and remarkably concise ;)
Any position
Submitted by Ohio2nd on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 9:39am.
that cannot be defended in a public forum is highly suspect.
I will ask it again
Submitted by jump23 on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 9:29pm.
BlueDog, what are you willing to accept for the sake of political expediency? Repeated votes to weaken the oversight role of congress? Another war? Maybe with Iran? Voting to keep Alberto Gonzalez?
I encourage people to read Chris Bowers response to the "vote your district" idea. He uses actual polling data to show that Leonard Boswell isn't voting close to his district. In his district, 51% of Republicans want out of Iraq in 6 months. The Bush Dog project is intended to bring that difference to light.
Answers, Jumpie...
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 10:57pm.
BlueDog, what are you willing to accept for the sake of political expediency?
Retention of Democratic House and Senate majorities and the 2009 inauguration of Hillary, Barack or whomever is nominated in Denver. That way, a progressive president and Dem Congress can turn the Bush Titanic away from the iceberg.
Repeated votes to weaken the oversight role of congress?
NO. See above.
Another war? Maybe with Iran?
Of course not..... but nailing Osama in his cave and re-stabilizing the Middle East with diplomacy would be a step in the right direction.
Voting to keep Alberto Gonzalez?
NOPE. He's a disgrace and a threat to electoral democracy in several states.
Ask Speaker Pelosi your "expediency" question and find out how "pure" she wants her caucus members to be in the short run.
Also...did read Bowers' lame defense of ideological "Bush Dog tracking" with his lone example of grandfather Boswell is Iowa. Boswell's numbers and votes have nothing to do with keeping marginal Ohio districts in the hands of freshmen congressmen. The local Iowans will catch up with Boswell some day.
But the Dem congressional delegation in Ohio must grow(not shrink with ideological purity) to fairly reflect the growingly progressive majority views of Ohioans --D, R and I. The D delegation won't happen unless we keep Space and Wilson and knock off the likes of Schmidt, Chabot, LaTourette, the Pryce-clone, and Turner with blue-dog, yellow-dog or green-dog Dems.
Space, Pelosi, and the FISA bill
Submitted by Jason Sonenshein on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 9:07pm.
Civil liberties are the main reason I'm a Democrat. I hope they find primary opponents for all of the Democrats who voted for the FISA bill, including Space, and that they manage to purge a few of them. Maybe then, the Democrats will learn to take the protection of civil liberties seriously. The FISA bill will come up for reauthorization during primary season. Primary challenges might scare the 41 Democratic traitors into finally doing the right thing.
The possibility of Space being replaced by a Republican doesn't scare me. In the two most important votes so far this session, the FISA Bill and the Hinchey medical marijuana amendment, Space voted with the Republicans; he might as well be one of them.
I'm not sure I see how Pelosi being replaced by Boehner would make much difference, either. The vote on the FISA bill showed that the new Democratic Congress is just as eager as the old Republican Congress was to give Bush a blumpkin while he craps on the Constitution.
Representative is not just a job title, its a job description...
Submitted by Nick D on Thu, 08/23/2007 - 11:40pm.
Speaker Pelosi, to her credit, has emphasized this point with each new incoming freshman(or woman) member of the House. Being a Representative means representing the district you have...not the one you wish you had. In this case, Congressman Space is representing a district that voted 57% for Bush in 2004. Therefore, he has to tred lightly on certain issues especially socially. Charlie Wilson has less of an excuse, given that he represents a dead-level swing district, but I think there's an important truth here that a lot of you are missing.
Here in the Mahoning Valley, and I think throughout eastern Ohio, there are an awful lot of union-member Democrats who are socially conservative. They don't take well to coastie liberals like the ones who are apparently writing the Open Left blog. I'm telling you right now that a Republican nominee like Mike Huckabee, who lately has sounded like a socially conservative version of Sherrod Brown, could do very, very well in traditionally Democratic areas of northeastern Ohio.
Here's another point. If you check out CQ Politics' "party loyalty" rating, you'll find that even the most conservative Democrats like Jim Marshall in the Georgia 8th are party-loyal two-thirds of the time. So what would Open Left rather have in a seat like the Ohio 18th? A moderate to conservative Democrat like Zack Space who votes our way two-thirds to three-quarters of the time? Or a Bob Ney clone who'll vote our way maybe 20-25% of the time?
And Jason, in response to the post above, what would have happened if, say, Congress had told Bush to go pound sand on the FISA bill and then, two months later, a terrorist attack hits the United States? You want to know what would happen? The Democratic party would be as dead as yesterday's fish, that's what. The fact is the Democrats in Congress thought they had a deal with the White House on FISA, but the White House reniged, and unwilling to take the risk I outlined above, Democrats instead gave him six months for his poll numbers to slide further to weaken him into accepting their original deal. FISA won't be renewed as-is at the end of the six months.
Let's all keep in mind, guys, that politics is the art of what's possible. Plain and simple.
"Being a Representative
Submitted by Jason Sonenshein on Sun, 08/26/2007 - 9:35pm.
"Being a Representative means representing the district you have..."
As Edmund Burke said, "A representative owes the people not only his industry, but his judgment, and he betrays them if he sacrifices it to their opinion."
"Here's another point. If you check out CQ Politics' "party loyalty" rating, you'll find that even the most conservative Democrats like Jim Marshall in the Georgia 8th are party-loyal two-thirds of the time. So what would Open Left rather have in a seat like the Ohio 18th? A moderate to conservative Democrat like Zack Space who votes our way two-thirds to three-quarters of the time? Or a Bob Ney clone who'll vote our way maybe 20-25% of the time?"
On the two votes so far this session that have actually mattered, Space voted with the Republicans. All the rest is just window dressing.
"And Jason, in response to the post above, what would have happened if, say, Congress had told Bush to go pound sand on the FISA bill and then, two months later, a terrorist attack hits the United States?"
How will that argument be any different in February? What makes you think that, without a great deal of pressure from civil libertarians, the Democrats won't cave again?
"Let's all keep in mind, guys, that politics is the art of what's possible. Plain and simple."
And it was entirely possible for Reid or Pelosi not to bring this to the floor for a vote. The Republican 109th Congress didn't give Bush what he wanted on FISA. No, it took a Democratic Congress to do that.
The Dr. writes Truth...
Submitted by Blue Dog Rising on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 7:15am.
...but Jason makes good civil libertarian points and Dems need his voice too.
Something else to consider