Buckeye State Blog - Dear Chris Bowers and Open Left gang: Stay the hell out of Ohio and lay off Zack Space - Comments

"Being a Representative

Jason Sonenshein — Sun, 26 Aug 2007 19:35:00 -0700

"Being a Representative means representing the district you have..."

As Edmund Burke said, "A representative owes the people not only his industry, but his judgment, and he betrays them if he sacrifices it to their opinion."

"Here's another point. If you check out CQ Politics' "party loyalty" rating, you'll find that even the most conservative Democrats like Jim Marshall in the Georgia 8th are party-loyal two-thirds of the time. So what would Open Left rather have in a seat like the Ohio 18th? A moderate to conservative Democrat like Zack Space who votes our way two-thirds to three-quarters of the time? Or a Bob Ney clone who'll vote our way maybe 20-25% of the time?"

On the two votes so far this session that have actually mattered, Space voted with the Republicans. All the rest is just window dressing.

"And Jason, in response to the post above, what would have happened if, say, Congress had told Bush to go pound sand on the FISA bill and then, two months later, a terrorist attack hits the United States?"

How will that argument be any different in February? What makes you think that, without a great deal of pressure from civil libertarians, the Democrats won't cave again?

"Let's all keep in mind, guys, that politics is the art of what's possible. Plain and simple."

And it was entirely possible for Reid or Pelosi not to bring this to the floor for a vote. The Republican 109th Congress didn't give Bush what he wanted on FISA. No, it took a Democratic Congress to do that.

Any position

Ohio2nd — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:39:26 -0700

that cannot be defended in a public forum is highly suspect.

The Dr. writes Truth...

Blue Dog Rising — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:15:11 -0700

...but Jason makes good civil libertarian points and Dems need his voice too.

Representative is not just a job title, its a job description...

Nick D — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:40:54 -0700

Speaker Pelosi, to her credit, has emphasized this point with each new incoming freshman(or woman) member of the House. Being a Representative means representing the district you have...not the one you wish you had. In this case, Congressman Space is representing a district that voted 57% for Bush in 2004. Therefore, he has to tred lightly on certain issues especially socially. Charlie Wilson has less of an excuse, given that he represents a dead-level swing district, but I think there's an important truth here that a lot of you are missing.

Here in the Mahoning Valley, and I think throughout eastern Ohio, there are an awful lot of union-member Democrats who are socially conservative. They don't take well to coastie liberals like the ones who are apparently writing the Open Left blog. I'm telling you right now that a Republican nominee like Mike Huckabee, who lately has sounded like a socially conservative version of Sherrod Brown, could do very, very well in traditionally Democratic areas of northeastern Ohio.

Here's another point. If you check out CQ Politics' "party loyalty" rating, you'll find that even the most conservative Democrats like Jim Marshall in the Georgia 8th are party-loyal two-thirds of the time. So what would Open Left rather have in a seat like the Ohio 18th? A moderate to conservative Democrat like Zack Space who votes our way two-thirds to three-quarters of the time? Or a Bob Ney clone who'll vote our way maybe 20-25% of the time?

And Jason, in response to the post above, what would have happened if, say, Congress had told Bush to go pound sand on the FISA bill and then, two months later, a terrorist attack hits the United States? You want to know what would happen? The Democratic party would be as dead as yesterday's fish, that's what. The fact is the Democrats in Congress thought they had a deal with the White House on FISA, but the White House reniged, and unwilling to take the risk I outlined above, Democrats instead gave him six months for his poll numbers to slide further to weaken him into accepting their original deal. FISA won't be renewed as-is at the end of the six months.

Let's all keep in mind, guys, that politics is the art of what's possible. Plain and simple.

Well said, Jill...

Blue Dog Rising — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:01:42 -0700

.....and remarkably concise ;)

Answers, Jumpie...

Blue Dog Rising — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:57:24 -0700

BlueDog, what are you willing to accept for the sake of political expediency?

Retention of Democratic House and Senate majorities and the 2009 inauguration of Hillary, Barack or whomever is nominated in Denver. That way, a progressive president and Dem Congress can turn the Bush Titanic away from the iceberg.

Repeated votes to weaken the oversight role of congress?

NO. See above.

Another war? Maybe with Iran?

Of course not..... but nailing Osama in his cave and re-stabilizing the Middle East with diplomacy would be a step in the right direction.

Voting to keep Alberto Gonzalez?

NOPE. He's a disgrace and a threat to electoral democracy in several states.

Ask Speaker Pelosi your "expediency" question and find out how "pure" she wants her caucus members to be in the short run.

Also...did read Bowers' lame defense of ideological "Bush Dog tracking" with his lone example of grandfather Boswell is Iowa. Boswell's numbers and votes have nothing to do with keeping marginal Ohio districts in the hands of freshmen congressmen. The local Iowans will catch up with Boswell some day.

But the Dem congressional delegation in Ohio must grow(not shrink with ideological purity) to fairly reflect the growingly progressive majority views of Ohioans --D, R and I. The D delegation won't happen unless we keep Space and Wilson and knock off the likes of Schmidt, Chabot, LaTourette, the Pryce-clone, and Turner with blue-dog, yellow-dog or green-dog Dems.

I will ask it again

jump23 — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:29:16 -0700

BlueDog, what are you willing to accept for the sake of political expediency? Repeated votes to weaken the oversight role of congress? Another war? Maybe with Iran? Voting to keep Alberto Gonzalez?

I encourage people to read Chris Bowers response to the "vote your district" idea. He uses actual polling data to show that Leonard Boswell isn't voting close to his district. In his district, 51% of Republicans want out of Iraq in 6 months. The Bush Dog project is intended to bring that difference to light.

"My conscience is better than your conscience"

Jill — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:17:50 -0700

Isn't diversity one of the hallmarks about being a Democrat? I never thought that the concept was limited to being only as diverse as Democrats who think they're more powerful or more correct think you should be.

Space, Pelosi, and the FISA bill

Jason Sonenshein — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:07:17 -0700

Civil liberties are the main reason I'm a Democrat. I hope they find primary opponents for all of the Democrats who voted for the FISA bill, including Space, and that they manage to purge a few of them. Maybe then, the Democrats will learn to take the protection of civil liberties seriously. The FISA bill will come up for reauthorization during primary season. Primary challenges might scare the 41 Democratic traitors into finally doing the right thing. The possibility of Space being replaced by a Republican doesn't scare me. In the two most important votes so far this session, the FISA Bill and the Hinchey medical marijuana amendment, Space voted with the Republicans; he might as well be one of them. I'm not sure I see how Pelosi being replaced by Boehner would make much difference, either. The vote on the FISA bill showed that the new Democratic Congress is just as eager as the old Republican Congress was to give Bush a blumpkin while he craps on the Constitution.

My, how we digresss in 24 hours...

Blue Dog Rising — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:11:52 -0700

Let’s consider the original language of the 4-step “Bush Dog” tracking plan from Stoller on Open Left.

“The first step in stopping this behavior is to identify the people engaging in it and offer up criticism” ....Criticism is fine. Any vote is up for scrutiny.

“Two, some of these members may need to face a primary challenge” ....This "need" is NOT so fine in Ohio and probably other states.. The next thing you know Zack Space will be knocked off in a primary and replaced by a Ney R-clone .

“Three, other members considering joining the Bush Dog caucus may be dissuaded if they know there will be criticism.” ....This is fiction. There is no “Bush Dog caucus” to join except in the mind of Open Left. There IS a real Blue Dog Coalition (fiscal conservatives) within the Dem caucus. They support Speaker Pelosi and Speaker Pro Temp Steny Hoyer (a Blue Dog)

“Four, candidates running for office will finally have a signal on how they should talk about being good Democrats that are willing to take tough votes.” .....What kind of cool-aid is this? Force Space, Wilson and others on the Open Left’s Nixonian “list” to drink this stuff and we wind up with Speaker Boner… er Boehner. . What’s next? Kucinich challenges Ted Strickland in the 2010 primary for governor.

Dems won’t beat Karl Rove’s wingnut “base” strategy by imitating it.

a question

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:05:08 -0700

Space needs to answer the question, which is more important doing the right thing or getting reelected?

Left?

domestic goddess — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:09:14 -0700

It is not left to want a representative or senator to support the Constitution and end the FISA/wiretap abuse. It is not left but center to expect these members to bring the troops home. I agree with Jump 23 and others above - how badly do congressmen want to hang onto their seats to vote for clearly wrong bills? These DLC, blue dogs or bush dogs (whatever tag) need to know that we expect them to vote like Democrats AND we will have their backs when they do. They have extremely hard ugly work ahead of them cleaning up the disasters created by this administration and 25 years of republican rule. They need to stop pussyfooting around and get to it. And we need to make sure we do have their backs as we suffer the consequences of 25 years of bad government and the cleanup.

What everyone else said

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:32:40 -0700

This is a very pathetic post. This point has been made repeatedly: Democrats who give Bush a working majority for issues like the "surge", warantless wiretapping, torture, etc., are (a) endangering the Constitution, (b) dragging the entire Democratic party reputation down nationally. It is every bit our business, across the country, how these members of the *United States Congress* vote on *national* issues. If they were members of the Ohio State Legislature, then unless they were voting on matters relating to running national elections, it would not really be any of our business. But that's not the situtation. If these anti-American, pro-Bush votes are aberrations, and the Congresspeople can be expected to improve, tell us that. :-)

Space, a "good Democrat?"

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:11:20 -0700

He's proudly touted his "independence," i.e., his repeated voting with the Republican bloc. Things he's "done for the 10th" mostly include advocating environmentally catastrophic industrial development. Oh, and most recently, promoting a bill to subsidize gas prices to make it easier for rural commuters to burn more gas *and* keep the jobs in the cities. Great job, Zack.

Jerid when you're right...

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:46:25 -0700

you're right. Some people just cannot grasp nuance. They remind me of a crack that was made about Billy Martin when he was managing the Yankees :

"He sees "long term trends' in innings."

And I am offended when people who have no idea of the situation here pontificate about our reps. I have NEVER known of a rep who votes "correctly" on every issue, every time. Zack is a brand new rep in a very shaky district. Wilson's INCREDIBLY gerrymandered District was created with just one purpose: to make life miserable for Ted Strickland.

Having said that, things are changing. The ODP has come to life again. The DCCC has lots $$$$ and they ARE paying attention to Ohio (BELIEVE ME) and before you know it, redistricting will be a reality. And Jill makes a good point, it is critical that we capture every single seat possible heading into reapportionment.

But this kind of sanctimonious lefter-than-thou stuff still isn't my style. After all, they were Ohio congresscritters who are absolutely SAFE who voted against stem cell research and for the ~~"Let's See What Library Books You've Checked Out"~~ "Patriot Act" but I still wouldn't support this sort of crap.

Dear Chris Bowers and Open Left gang: Stay the hell out of Ohio and lay off Zack Space

2010 Buckeye — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 16:26:21 -0700

Potts at Left of Ohio picked up this story from Open Left. The gist of it is the beginning of a campaign to drive "Bush Dogs", a play off Blue Dogs, out of the House of Representatives. They're pretty adamant about sticking their noses in local business, and they've even made themselves a list! Appearing on said list are Ohio Reps. Space and Wilson. Wilson admittedly could use some work when it comes to the positions he takes, but it isn't cause for revolt. He has taken the 6th district more to the right than Ted Strickland ever did which is foolish and unnecessary. However, that can be dealt with here in Ohio without the help of any obnoxious out-of-state bloggers.

Space represents the more conservative 18th district. He has done a fine job as a representative tending to his constituents by working hard on the issues that affect them. He's also a proud Democrat and a good party member. He doesn't deserve any of the bile that these national folks are looking to throw at him. Any ridiculous attacks from the left will only harm the party and may cost us the seat. He will be a prime target for Republican attack in 2008, and the last thing anyone wants to see is folks who are ignorant of the local situation causing problems for a hardworking Congressman who deserves to be reelected.

So please, Open Left crew, let us take care of Ohio. After all, we know the Buckeye State much better than you do.